tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post116983134736662301..comments2023-10-30T14:34:16.722-07:00Comments on Men Need Feminism: What is it About Men? Part OneJeff Pollethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-89676086466128471792007-01-31T11:20:00.000-08:002007-01-31T11:20:00.000-08:00Jeff, I agree with you that self-interest should b...Jeff, I agree with you that self-interest should be one of our motives. I'm from the Alinsky school of organizing, which states that self-interest is the most important thing to realize in order to achieve social justice. But it still doesn't mean I feel good about it. And yet, I'm still a big fan of encouraging men to discover their own self-interest in order to realize gender justice. It's a rich and tasty inconsistency, for sure.JusticeForAllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08629920291848543011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-4795790376097117742007-01-30T08:25:00.000-08:002007-01-30T08:25:00.000-08:00I really should be reading you regularly, rather t...<i>I really should be reading you regularly, rather than occasionally.</i>--djw<br /><br />Well, we really should be posting regularly, rather than occasionally, so that works. Heh.<br /><br />Thanks for the comment. I think the comparison of despair vs. discomfort is a great one--part of what I feel is that I <i>ought</i> to be feeling discomfort around my past and present abilities to participate in the world in a way that addresses the gendered power dynamics that exist...in part because the gendered power dynamics exist in the unbalanced way that they do. But should I despair about my abilities? Nope. I have improved, and I think others can (and will) improve as well. I will continue to improve, with effort. <br /><br />So--discomfort more productive than despair seems a good way to think about this stuff.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553129738801928284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-49139488504000841372007-01-30T01:39:00.000-08:002007-01-30T01:39:00.000-08:00Excellent post. I really should be reading you reg...Excellent post. I really should be reading you regularly, rather than occasionally.<br /><br />In re: avoiding despair about past behavior--I've been dealing with this--with regard to some stuff that happened long after I started identifying as a feminist--the nature and depth of my feminist worldview hasn't really changed, but my self-awareness level has. I find both comfort and discomfort, but not despair, in the thought that "I did the best I could at the time." Comfort, in that this thought prevents pointless self-flagellation, and discomfort, in that it's a sick joke--one that reflects poorly on both me and the cultural milieu in which I swim that THAT really actually the best I could do. But that particular breed of discomfort is more productive than despair. I think.David Watkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14954313265808615991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-72946016746895636792007-01-29T22:23:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:23:00.000-08:00anonymous, I've deleted your comment. If you care ...anonymous, I've deleted your comment. If you care to talk about why, feel free to email me.Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-1606800372455060162007-01-29T22:16:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:16:00.000-08:00Hugo--Thanks. It's always nice to know you're sto...Hugo--Thanks. It's always nice to know you're stopping by!<br /><br />By the way Hugo, if you haven't read bell hooks' The Will to Change, I'd recommend it to you (to read between the seven classes you're teaching). I think she hits on a lot of the same sentiments/conceptual puzzles that you work on.Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-75165875708915093242007-01-29T22:14:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:14:00.000-08:00justice--Thank you for your comment. I think self-...justice--Thank you for your comment. I think self-interest <i>ought</i> to be one of our motives, y'know? That's why people who write about how feminism is (also) good for men can be inspiring to me. <br /><br />When you say "...and it really wasn't their fault that they were afraid of me," you strike a chord with my experiences. I have close friends who are women who don't open up to me as much as I'd like (in part) because of the abuse in various forms that they've suffered at the hands of other men. And, where some anti-feminists might ignore the institutional nature of such abuse, that just seems to fly in the face of reality, to me. <br /><br />Thanks again for the comment.Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-10382964235859413932007-01-29T22:09:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:09:00.000-08:00Janelle--
I'm not a gender essentialist by any str...Janelle--<br />I'm not a gender essentialist by any stretch of the imagination, so I'd agree with you that aggression and violence aren't exclusive to men; it's also important, I think, to be reminded of this from time to time. Actually, as a man going through the guilt that 20/20 hindsight can bring, I would say it's even more important than ever for me to remember that.<br /><br />That said, not only are men more likely to be forgiven for such behavior, I think there are often (not always, but often) other factors at work--if you and I were arguing and you stood in my way, I think I could get past you--not that you're not tall and strong and all of that, but I think I weigh a good 100lbs more than you, some of it muscle. And the fact that men are often (not always, but often) more physically strong than men speaks to the power dynamic. So, when you block the way, it <i>does</i> mean something akin to the what it means when I block the way--but it doesn't mean all of the same things, if you see what I mean.Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-12340391286939527572007-01-29T22:01:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:01:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-26169386609919083522007-01-29T22:00:00.000-08:002007-01-29T22:00:00.000-08:00Andrew--Thanks so much. I think it's good to have...Andrew--Thanks so much. I think it's good to have a forum where we can talk about the fact that the realizations <i>are</i> painful. When one identifies as a feminist and one is a man, it can be even more difficult and painful, because there is the danger of slipping into various ways of thinking that either aren't helpful or won't seem to be helpful--the 'I deserve a cookie' way of thinking, the 'This pain is more difficult/more important than what women go through' way of thinking, or just 'I feel so freakin' guilty' way of thinking. <br /><br />Being able to discuss it seems to have helped me, at least, though that, too, is painful.<br /><br />Anything by Jensen you'd recommend to start with? He's pretty prolific, after a brief googling...Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-61682841833870972562007-01-29T21:55:00.000-08:002007-01-29T21:55:00.000-08:00dave--Thanks for the insights. I think it's tough...dave--Thanks for the insights. I think it's tough to both feel proud for progress made and at the same time understand the work to be done is a bit overwhelming, both on a personal level and on a more global level.<br /><br />Just finish one of the twelve, will you? ;)Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-50255708611878819712007-01-29T14:19:00.000-08:002007-01-29T14:19:00.000-08:00I refer to myself a feminist or pro-feminist (I st...I refer to myself a feminist or pro-feminist (I still am not sure over what I should call myself, as the connotations of labels are very important to me) as well.<br />The interesting part is that I was an anti-racist and supporter of gay rights while maintaining an active anti-feminist position. I think that for a long time I was in denial over the extent of oppression of women in our society. <br />I had a number of really painful relationships with women around then--nearly all of them had been physically or sexually abused. I think it was the day that I realized that fear of men was severely hampering my relationships with all of those women, and that it really wasn't their fault that they were afraid of me. So I decided to help change the system.<br />To be honest, it was a pure self-interest move. It took me a little while to also get out of the "what's in it for me" stage, but it was my entry to the world of feminism. And I'm very glad I started that journey, even looking back on how I began it.JusticeForAllhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08629920291848543011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-68135805283567088702007-01-29T08:26:00.000-08:002007-01-29T08:26:00.000-08:00Not that I'm disagreeing with you about the role o...Not that I'm disagreeing with you about the role of gender in the way men have learned to control women, but as I read your personal examples, I was also reading my history. I have tried to prevent boyfriends from leaving a conversation by using physical force or myself as a barrier. Aggression and violence are insidious traits that aren't mutually exclusive to males, although I do see that they are more frowned upon when women display these traits, and more-or-less forgiven or empathized with when men do. <br /><br />Thank you for this wonderful post.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05572514705373755851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-40443015008646504902007-01-27T14:44:00.000-08:002007-01-27T14:44:00.000-08:00This has been one of the best posts at Feminist Al...This has been one of the best posts at Feminist Allies so far - thank you, Jeff.<br /><br />I've only identified as a feminist for about a year now, but its a been a year of self-reflection and a lot of painful realizations about my own past behavior. This is one of the hardest things for men to discuss- not only personally, but socially - there just aren't many environments that are friendly to listening to men anguish over their own past patriarchal tendencies.<br /><br />A great writer I enjoy is Robert Jensen. He focuses on race and pornorgraphy, but has one of the deepest understandings of privilege.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-18805446594757374852007-01-26T18:11:00.000-08:002007-01-26T18:11:00.000-08:00Great post, Jeff. Thank you for sharing this. I fo...Great post, Jeff. Thank you for sharing this. I found the following passage especially easy to relate to:<br /><br />"<i>To be very clear, because I think that there are a lot of men who make some changes and then want a cookie, I want to say explicitly that I am not interested in 'credit' for not being that person any longer [...]</i>"<br /><br />I feel much the same way. When I first started becoming really aware of my privilege and noticing the way gender works, I thought myself quite worthy of praise for rising above the masses. It wasn't until later that I realized I had only gotten up to a baseline of human decency, a plateau from which I could then advance to a state that I might actually be proud of.<br /><br />Anyway, I think I may do a similar "before feminism" post. If I can get myself to complete any of the half-dozen drafts I have saved :)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492294499781518531noreply@blogger.com