tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post3141652507640384538..comments2023-10-30T14:34:16.722-07:00Comments on Men Need Feminism: Feminism - and Religion - My Recent ExperienceJeff Pollethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-38129321753708945272007-03-26T21:31:00.000-07:002007-03-26T21:31:00.000-07:00Thanks Molly, Dave and Jeff for your insightful re...Thanks Molly, Dave and Jeff for your insightful remarks! Where one has a total life system and faith - total faith - is a part of it, I find it pointless to debate it.<BR/><BR/>Talking of equality with my aunt would inevitably have drawn myself into so many other areas - that would have related to her faith.<BR/><BR/>While I might demonstrate against some organizations whose beliefs I might oppose - related perhaps to: Sexism Issues, religious related freedoms, abortion rights or other issues, I find it pointless to debate with others who have absolute faith in views diametrically opposed to important parts of my beliefs.<BR/><BR/>I also respect(ed) most of my aunt's beliefs while not agreeing with some of them.<BR/><BR/>Molly - your insights were particularly on target and helpful for me. Thanks to all~geohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454863293588730573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-50684460295422384262007-03-26T14:07:00.000-07:002007-03-26T14:07:00.000-07:00I think it is generally ok to question faith, espe...<I>I think it is generally ok to question faith, especially when faith hurts people (and I think we might all agree that sexism hurts people). -- Jeff</I><BR/><BR/>The impression I got from what Geo said was not that faith is unreproachable, but that it is not susceptible to argument. Faith is absolutely something everyone ought to question and argue against, but the problem with it is that those who have faith are, by its very nature, resistant to such argument.<BR/><BR/>So while an individual's faith may lead them to do or condone some pretty heinous acts, it is more or less useless to try to argue against it.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492294499781518531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-23671874569580616332007-03-26T12:39:00.000-07:002007-03-26T12:39:00.000-07:00geo,I am sorry for your loss.I think it's interest...geo,<BR/><BR/>I am sorry for your loss.<BR/><BR/>I think it's interesting that you brought up her own belief in her equality. I think that there are two kinds of equality in feminist circles (possibly more): one is *equal importance*/*equal value*: those whose views are that women's work is equally important to men's work, but it maintains the distinction between the two social spaces.<BR/><BR/>The other talks about equality in terms of rights to freedoms: equal freedom is a lot of what we all have been discussing here.<BR/><BR/>One distinction I have heard used that makes some sense is that this is the difference between equality (equal value) and liberty (freedoms) and I think that the struggle for civil rights really deals with both.<BR/><BR/>It is important that we realize that women traditionally have made important contributions to society, *even in traditional roles*...but it is also important to fight for the rights to be able to do the same kinds of things as men and face the same opportunities.<BR/><BR/>My senior year of highschool we were all assigned "buddies" who were freshmen to help out, show around teh school etc. My buddy was an orthodox jew. We learned a lot from each other (as I am sure he did not anticipate being paired up with the school's only riot grrl), but I found it odd that the school, which was really pretty culturally aware for the time, did not anticipate in the planning of some activities the fact that his religion prohibited any kind of physical contact with me. We had to actually go to the dean to talk to her about why we couldn't participate in trust-building exercises. I think we ended up spending the afternoon chit-chatting a bit, but honestly I don't remember.<BR/><BR/>That said, I would be hard-pressed to call that limitation "immoral behavior" because it's the particular moral code of orthodox judaism that informs the behavior. Instead, I would call it a system I could not find myself following. Just like I could not find myself being a housewife, a mother of a large family, a catholic, etc.<BR/>-mMollygrrlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698868250829818934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-20848545362177519652007-03-26T08:01:00.000-07:002007-03-26T08:01:00.000-07:00My aunt would have argued that she was not discrim...<I>My aunt would have argued that she was not discriminated against. She would say that her role was equal to that of men.<BR/><BR/>I always disagreed with that perception, though generally didn't argue with her. It is pointless to argue with "faith". </I>--Geo<BR/><BR/>I thought you were saying here that her belief in her own equality was based on faith...? I'm not getting that you must have meant something other than religious faith?<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong--I think it is generally ok to question faith, especially when faith hurts people (and I think we might all agree that sexism hurts people).Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-83723876796211452602007-03-25T19:32:00.000-07:002007-03-25T19:32:00.000-07:00Jeff - my aunt's view of her equality was not base...Jeff - my aunt's view of her equality was not based upon faith. She believed that the woman's leadership in the household and other roles that women are expected to perform in their culture is equal to the role of the man, who is the religious leader of the household and is either a scholar or the primary breadwinner in their culture.<BR/><BR/>Women are "alluring" to men - similar in some ways to Muslim culture and must be "respected". Women are "dirty" during menstruation and must be ritually cleansed.<BR/><BR/>My point regarding faith - is that they live in a culture where the rules are clear and gender roles are clearly defined. <BR/><BR/>I believe in a world of multiculturalism and diversity where because one is whatever one is is not reason to have one's "place" defined by others or of necessity by oneself.<BR/><BR/>In my aunt's world - they want to be left alone by others. In some ways us non-religious or less-religious Jews are a "threat" because we reflect a world where Jews have choices to be who they might choose to be.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again - Dave and Jeff!geohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454863293588730573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-61636866448042430522007-03-25T16:01:00.000-07:002007-03-25T16:01:00.000-07:00I too am sorry to hear about your loss, Geo. Thank...I too am sorry to hear about your loss, Geo. Thank you for sharing this.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to hear that you do not consider faith an excuse for what you perceive to be immoral behaviour. Too often people and governments have condoned sexist, racist or otherwise oppressive behaviour in the name of religious freedom, and it is disgusting.<BR/><BR/>I was at a cousin's Bar Mitzvah last year, and the sight of women partitioned off like mid-20th-century African-Americans made me feel physically ill. I hadn't been inside a synagogue in years, so I hadn't gotten used to the clear separation between the men -- who were the ones running and participating in the rituals -- and the women, who seemed to be there almost as an afterthought, a concession. "Well, okay, sure, you can attend. But keep your distance, mind. Stay behind the fence.<BR/><BR/>The sheer amount of sexism in religion is staggering, and it's not even subtle, hidden behind acts of privilege. Orthodox Judaism seems -- speaking strictly about the religion here, not necessarily its practitioners -- like one of the worst offenders in this sense (I can't say this is definitely so, as I am not as familiar with other religions as I am with Judaism). The restrictions for women on interaction with men are not as strict as in, for instance, many forms of Islam, but they are there. And as far as I can remember, there are absolutely no women directly involved in religious rituals, except marriages.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, a lot more could be said about this. Thank you for being willing to examine your family's traditions with a critical eye. Many people who are otherwise rational have a blind spot when it comes to religion.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492294499781518531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-20596267225431426612007-03-25T12:27:00.000-07:002007-03-25T12:27:00.000-07:00I'm sorry for your loss, Geo. Are you certain tha...I'm sorry for your loss, Geo. <BR/><BR/>Are you certain that your aunt's view of her equality was based on faith? I'd want to know more about that--there can be good reasons to have segregated spaces; the problem is that there are all kinds of <I>very bad</I> reasons to segregate spaces as well. I'd need to know more about the why's of the segregation to say that this was more of an example of segregating for bad reasons, though I haven't really run into a religion that wasn't sexist as heck in this sort of way.<BR/><BR/>I love that you're taking what your aunt would have thought into account here--that says a lot about you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553129738801928284noreply@blogger.com