tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post4863047776973670654..comments2023-10-30T14:34:16.722-07:00Comments on Men Need Feminism: Misandry ??Jeff Pollethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-77131171270884889692007-03-02T14:36:00.000-08:002007-03-02T14:36:00.000-08:00There are theories that help us understand, and th...There are theories that help us understand, and then there are theories that help us blame. <BR/><BR/>Let us say that what we are after, is change. <BR/><BR/>It isn't that the theories that help us blame are totally useless in promoting change. But I do think they are subject to diminishing returns. The theories that promote understanding, on the other hand, compound their effectiveness over time, or so I feel.<BR/><BR/>There is some overlap of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-81988907207568160052007-03-02T08:51:00.000-08:002007-03-02T08:51:00.000-08:00Jeff - good points - with MRA's (men's rights advo...Jeff - good points - with MRA's (men's rights advocates)listening to them and dialoging with them is certainly a good idea.<BR/><BR/>I went to a meeting 25 years ago of an MRA group in Madison, WI and I was amazed at the anger - particularly of the current partners of some of these men.<BR/><BR/>Ackowledging feelings while confronting issues is important. Letting our emotions get in the way is counter-productive.<BR/><BR/>I remember, for example, a man berating his wife for "wasting" the $300/month this man had to pay in child support as if this was "luxury" money. He had no idea, clearly, of how much money it took, even then, to raise a child.<BR/><BR/>I don't hear humbition saying that any/all theoretical frameworks are rationale for behavior.<BR/><BR/>I do hear him saying, for example, that listening to the feelings of the man, who was emotionally or physically battered as a child is important in helping him stop his battering behavior with his partner or children. <BR/><BR/>Understanding the pattern does not justify the behavior. The feelings are there - regardless. Acknowledging them is helpful.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!geohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454863293588730573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-80951907020065990492007-03-02T08:22:00.000-08:002007-03-02T08:22:00.000-08:00Great post, geo. So good, in fact, that you almos...Great post, geo. So good, in fact, that you almost make me wish I hadn't deleted that guy's comments. (We can reinstate the comment, btw. I only deleted it 'for now', which is why I left the message that he can contact me if he'd like to.) <BR/><BR/>I think humbition's points are good ones, in general--I also think it's possible to create and revise theoretical frameworks that include a place for lots and lots of empathy for everybody, including sexist asshats. I think angry, divorced MRAs are a perfect example of a case where probably more empathy ought to be sometimes extended, but where I find it hard to do so. So thanks for bringing that stuff in, humbition. <BR/>Understanding can be a powerful tool.<BR/><BR/>That said, I think blame can be a good tool, too--especially if there are dangerous people involved, and if responsibility isn't being taken seriously. For instance, men who consistently bother strangers on the street by hitting on them, whistling and the like probably don't think they're doing anything wrong, and while they ought to be empathized with on various levels, they also ought to be blamed for their behavior.Jeff Pollethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789663140920958914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-17039683253796149122007-03-02T07:19:00.000-08:002007-03-02T07:19:00.000-08:00humbition - I appreciate your clarification - furt...humbition - I appreciate your clarification - further explanation which makes perfect sense to me.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!geohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454863293588730573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-46019258839828940062007-03-01T22:16:00.000-08:002007-03-01T22:16:00.000-08:00I'm not advocating that anyone turn off their brai...I'm not advocating that anyone turn off their brain, much less that we stop analyzing patterns that connect.<BR/><BR/>Actually it is precisely because I look at patterns and connection that I tend to want to move past blame and toward understanding and compassion -- which can certainly coexist with a fierce opposition to systems which cause pain and even oppression.<BR/><BR/>There is a kind of stereotypical compassion which I am not for, and which is associated with the sexist female role. I don't care for that sort of suppression of the self in the service of smooth social workings. But I think that is different from the kind of compassion that arises out of empathy for our shared human limitations. And perhaps it is in the spirit of gender transcendence that, as a man, I try consciously for the latter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-29030914718546387152007-03-01T20:50:00.000-08:002007-03-01T20:50:00.000-08:00humbition--I just finished writing a college appli...humbition--<BR/><BR/>I just finished writing a college application essay about my love of cybernetics, specifically how I use system-level thinking as a tool to get through daily life. It's a philosophical thing for me, or maybe even a religious one. <BR/><BR/>This isn't a factual assertion that I can defend, but I believe that understanding patterns is one of the very best things about being human.Orionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04335678085523153916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-51977544610464625012007-03-01T19:12:00.000-08:002007-03-01T19:12:00.000-08:00I agree with part of what you say, while feeling t...I agree with part of what you say, while feeling that it isn't complete. It is ideal when we can avoid blaming others for things.<BR/><BR/>At the same time to tell a woman, for example, who has experienced repeated obnoxious sexist behaviors such as being whistled at or followed by men she doesn't know Not to recognize the pattern as Sexist and to see a systematic problem is wrong in my estimation.<BR/><BR/>Where we as men or women have problems with our partners and friends Most of the time we should be able to deal with the individual situation feeling the pain or hurt or whatever, without having to label it. <BR/><BR/>Things aren't always so clear of course, but often they are. Thanks for sharing your ideas and please respond to my words if you feel it helpful.geohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13454863293588730573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-51924566592011870132007-03-01T18:50:00.000-08:002007-03-01T18:50:00.000-08:00Actually it is maybe most often our own feelings w...Actually it is maybe most often our own feelings we dismiss, unless we can invent a theory or justification for them. This has the same consequences as dismissing the feelings of others on that basis -- actually, more so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28989955.post-75437512037463355072007-03-01T18:41:00.000-08:002007-03-01T18:41:00.000-08:00Perhaps if we as human beings simply learned to ex...Perhaps if we as human beings simply learned to express our pain as pain, without blame or need for justification, and if we learned to accept and listen to each other's pain in that spirit, we would not need to develop theories and explanations which are hurtful in their own turn, and reactionary. The "oppression olympics" arises, I think, from the habit we have of dismissing the feelings of others, unless we can place those feelings in "explanatory boxes" that we feel are valid. We don't have to buy people's crackpot theories or ideas, to understand the difficulties of their existence (even if their existence is easier than our own), and to accept that they are in some emotional pain, which is after all just part of the human condition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com